[11:17] Thoke : constructor theory of Deutsch and Marletto seems an
interesting interdisciplanary approach here

[11:20] Thoke : everything is rocket science today :D

[11:24] Meiss : all depends on procurement of information! There is no
information you use statisitcs or AI methods.  Or use the good feeling of the
manager

[11:31] Thoke : What do you think is the role of the manager in a deployment
initialization process?

[11:41] Kleemann : drawing borders are a form of theory?

[11:42] Thoke : Switching from deductive reasoning to inductive?

[11:42] Kleemann : Pattern and parameters are theory not in a formal way but
in a practical way. 

[11:44] Kleemann : Feeedback cycle is then a formal theory so a theory of a
practical theory?

[11:52] Solodkin : APQC and SCOR provide measures and benchmarks for specific
processes.

[12:14] Thoke : Is this also a problem of whether having a reproductive system
or an (open) development process?

[12:27] Kleemann : The point is more, this model is linear, it can not fix a
iteration of forwrd and backward

[12:27] Immanuel Thoke : Phase transition?

[12:28] Kleemann : Phase transition and backward loop

[12:39] Kleemann : I said it is for this point not important, linear or
iteration.

[12:42] Kleemann : That would mean an engineer starts with nothing, I think
this is mystification.

[12:42] Immanuel Thoke : I understood it more as a relative statement.

[12:43] Laue : They start with a goal in mind and knowledge about methods and
restrictions.

[12:43] Kleemann : @Laue: exactly, they don't start with just an ideal
outcome.

[13:53] Kleemann : I hereby protest against such a cultural discrimination on
unphilosophical and wrong base!!!!!!!

[13:55] Graebe : Are there "right answers" in complex/chaotic situations?

Is Management only understandable as personal profession or also as _function_
of a system (i.e. of its control component)?

"Objective vs. Subjective". What does "objective" mean in this context?

What does "meaningful" mean?

"Explicit vs. tacit knowledge"? Are this the only forms of knowledge?

"System only as abstraction of the observer". Doesn't the action of the
observer implement systemic structures in reality? This is one of our main
claims.

[13:57] Schumann : I was wondering about your strong dichotomy of
technology and culture. Technology is part of our culture, part of our social
everyday practice.

[14:01] Thoke : "In a systemic world, however, that 'outside' is nothing else
than the totality of all other systems."

[14:12] Thoke : I don't think "opposite" is precise here.

[14:12] Thoke : Isn't this a type of absolute relativism? Sounds too
homogeneous. 

[14:25] Kleemann : For all atoms is the universe the subsystem and also this
chaos has patterns.

[14:26] Kleemann : I don't know exactly doesn't mean there is a pure chaos.

[14:28] Thoke : Yep, we can catch some signature and approximate the variance.

[14:28] Heuten : So, do we wonder about chaos or order?

[14:28] Thoke : hehe

[14:35] Thoke : you can go on on this discussion foreever I guess :D

[14:35] Heuten : ++

[14:35] Eckardt : Isn't Chaos and order - not a subjective value? When I can
track every gas molekula - this is order, if I don't want to track - this is
chaos.

[14:37] Olga Eckardt : It is a question of Tool development.

[14:55] Thoke : And we have economical co-dependencies.

[14:58] Thoke : stability-flexibility trade-off problems

[15:29] Immanuel Thoke : so it's a network flow problem?

[16:17] Thoke : Peter Scholze is doing some interesting math on this
(interrelations between diophantic equations and automorph fields)